Preparing for a Reduction in Force

While no one looks forward to a reduction in force (RIF), it is a fact of life for many organizations today in order to meet strategic goals and business needs. Taking time to carefully plan and prepare can make the difference between a successful transition and a disaster. Tune in to this conversation as HR experts, Candee Chambers and Dana Deason of ArcBest discuss the nuts and bolts to help ensure your organization implements an RIF successfully and in a manner that is compliant and respectful of the individuals involved. 

Transcript

Candee Chambers:

Hello. My name is Candee Chambers with DirectEmployers, and I would like to welcome you to the DE Talk Podcast, QuaranDEAM Edition. Season One wrapped with some amazing conversations. And with many of us working remotely, we wanted to keep the conversation flowing and provide an additional outlet of education for our listeners. Today, I have an unfortunate yet timely topic to discuss, preparing for a reduction in workforce. The COVID-19 pandemic has taken a toll on all industries and an unprecedented impact on the HR functions for not only our Members, but employers large and small around the nation. While this is never a topic that anyone in HR enjoys, I find it important to be prepared for changes you may experience as part of your role. Joining me to discuss this is Dana Deason, Senior Manager of HR compliance with the DE Member company, ArcBest. So let's get started!

Dana Deason:

Thanks, Candee. I'm happy to be here. Grateful for the opportunity to discuss this topic as I get a lot of questions about best practices for navigating situations like restructures, that can sometimes be less than clear cut.

Candee Chambers:

I've had a few of them, myself that I've had to administer and it's always a challenge. So before we get too far into the topic though, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself Dana?

Dana Deason:

Well, sure. Well, I've been quarantining. My dog and I have solved a lot of crime in NCIS: New Orleans, but-

Candee Chambers:

Me too. I watch it all weekend.

Dana Deason:

It's great. I've never watched it before, but now I'm an expert so.

Candee Chambers:

Oh, I love that. I love the whole NCIS series.

Dana Deason:

It's been great. But professionally, I started with ArcBest, working for our best in class LTL provider ABF all the way back in 2005, I was a student worker in college. So ArcBest is a single source logistics company and I was saving money to study for a semester in Morocco, Africa. Was grateful for the opportunity to work in their human resources department. I imaged documents and answered phone calls, things like that, and then returned after my semester and started working during college break. When I graduated, they let me stay on. Like a lot of folks in HR, if you stick around long enough, you end up with a lot more things to learn how to do. And I eventually transitioned into compliance for the entire ArcBest enterprise in 2017. And I've been here ever since.

Candee Chambers:

You know what? Honestly Dana, I mean I've known you for how many years and really, you're one of my favorites and I had never known that you'd been to Morocco because I was in Morocco a year ago with Shannon Offord...

Dana Deason:

Really?

Candee Chambers:

Yeah, and Charlie Terrell from NASWA. And when I read that, I was like, "Oh my gosh. I didn't even know that. And what an experience." And then when you just now said imaging documents, I don't know if you remember, but I mean, I know you're a lot younger than I am but I used to work at an insurance company for two summers and Christmases while I was in college. And I was down in the basement doing microfiching. Oh my gosh, what a boring job. Well then, they had me doing dictation and transcribing letters on carbon copies. And my mother, who used to be an office manager, told me that I better not make mistakes because you can't correct things through carbon copy.

Dana Deason:

Right.

Candee Chambers:

Oh, I mean carbon paper and oh my goodness so-

Dana Deason:

Yeah. It's funny what you learned during new projects.

Candee Chambers:

I didn't even realize that. We'll have to talk later about Morocco.

Dana Deason:

Yeah.

Candee Chambers:

And so anyway, in your current role, I know you spend a lot of time working with employees and leadership, finding solutions and navigating all sorts of tough situations. What trends are you seeing right now? And what advice do you have for us in this new environment and for some of our other Members and listeners?

Dana Deason:

Yeah. So Candee first, okay, if I can throw in a shameless plug, I am biased. I think we at ArcBest have some of the best employees on the planet and I'm so proud and I feel extremely honored to work with the people that I do. That being said, whether it's in our current environment or in another situation, companies have to manage the resources that they have within customer expectations and ensure that those are aligned. And sometimes unfortunately, that results in reductions in force or other types of separations, either temporary or permanent. So it's times like these where things are evolving so rapidly and companies have to take quick action to protect their employees and the company's longterm success. It can result in mistakes either with the review process or with the communication when situations will result in more temporary situations like furloughs or layoffs or reductions in force.

Candee Chambers:

Yeah. Right now, I've been paying attention to the CARES Act, the PPP loans and everything, and the certain requirements and having to keep people on the job but then some people say they don't ... Some employers are saying they don't have enough work. And I mean, it's a very difficult time right now. As I said, at the very beginning, I've been through a lot of reductions in force and it's never a good time but now, there's so many things to pay attention to. And I mean, the lawyers are saying that this is kind of a payday for plaintiff lawyers because if you don't get it right, you could be in big trouble. So we'll talk about that I'm sure a little bit more, but what would you recommend that we need to know then in order to stay out of hot water and to make sure that we don't get into trouble?

Dana Deason:

Well, and to your point Candee, with laws changing on a daily basis, I think New Jersey's been a real trendsetter in shifting laws to try to keep up with the situation. And I don't know that we'll have time within this particular discussion to get into WARN Acts but I mean, it's amazing how states are changing. Even notice requirements, if you do have a separation, Arkansas just came out with one last week. So two weeks ago, you didn't have a notice requirement in Arkansas for a separation. And now, you do. And it's good information. It's just trying to keep up and find out things.

Dana Deason:

So as a general rule, when there's a lot of pressure to move quickly, that's when human resources can really step in and be a guide and it is necessary to move quickly and respond but it's time well spent to review discussions, which impact your team members and spending a little time preparing on the front end can save a lot of time and trouble when it is time to make those decisions. And if your company isn't facing this scenario right now, which I hope that it's not, I do highly recommended defining what the process should look like and then get on the same page internally about your terminology that you'll use. I saw in a response John Fox explained "furlough" as a sort of a made up word that human resource companies are trying to use right now and it's true.

Dana Deason:

But even within furloughs, six months is kind of the trigger for that. If a furlough is going to last longer than six months, if you know that at the beginning, you need to understand that could double count for WARN notices and other things like that and no longer be considered temporary. So kind of have that timeline in mind when you think through those things as well. So layoff and furlough are kind of similar terms, reductions in force or some combination of those in order to get on the same page internally about what terminology you'll use, whether it's terminations, layoffs, reductions in force, furlough, or some combination of those solutions to try to meet up with a customer coming in.

Candee Chambers:

One thing that you brought up about HR having a seat at the table, and I've got over a 30 year career in human resources. And I've seen where HR is really included right at the very beginning and then other times when HR is just shaking their head going, "Oh geez. Now how am I going to clean this up?" And the difficulty I think today is that there are so many people in HR that don't have a lot of knowledge. I mean a lot of times, you hire someone new in HR and they learn how to do their piece of the job.

Candee Chambers:

I was smiling. Dana, when you were talking about your beginning and how if you're there long enough, you learn how to do bits and pieces. And I know you've seen my bio and I've touched almost every area of HR, but not a lot of people today have that great opportunity for experience in so many different areas. And they don't necessarily know what the WARN Act is or what laws you have to follow. And that can be a challenge as well for HR people.

Dana Deason:

Absolutely. So my best advice in that scenario is to have either a network or in-house or outside counsel that you trust that is knowledgeable in some of these areas. I'd also highly recommend having access if at all possible, to some sort of ... Who are like DirectEmployers or SHRM, or some kind of reliable access to information so that you can search these things. While Google can sometimes come in handy, it's not always the most reliable information, especially anything evolving so quickly. But if you do find yourself...

Candee Chambers:

Oh no, I actually had an attorney one time ... I was on the phone for a Member with a compliance officer. Unfortunately it was a compliance officer I had when I was still doing a firm reduction plan personally for my company. And I knew her pretty well and I liked her. She was wonderful. But this attorney was asking or saying what he thought was the appropriate action and I said, "No, that's really not correct." I said, "Have you read the regulations?" He said, "Well to tell you the truth, I just Googled it." The compliance officer and I were like, "Um. You can't always do that."

Dana Deason:

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Candee Chambers:

Yeah. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I mean, you really have to make sure you have people you trust and do have the right answers because you can really get into a lot of trouble unnecessarily.

Dana Deason:

Exactly. So if you do find yourself walking in as things have already started happening, if you're already in the midst of it as HR and you need to carefully review the selection process, if they say these are the people that we've selected either for furlough layoff reduction in force, whatever the process is, you need to make sure first that it doesn't violate employment laws. And that the decisions being made make sense for the organization and the team. So if you're new to your organization, you really need to dig in and understand how it operates, how your organizational chart runs, and if what's on paper actually what happens. And then make sure you have your documentation in order. We mentioned WARN. There's also separation notices. There's so much federal, county, municipality that you need to make sure. If you're in Canada, of course, are you federal or is it by province?

Dana Deason:

So make sure that you have your documentation in order and that you understand if these are going to be temporary or permanent situations. And then think through the communication process. When at all possible, have leadership pump the brakes in discussing with any affected employees. So if they know who, to try to make sure that they don't discuss it yet until you've had a chance to review it all. If unfortunately in kind of a worst case scenario, you find out that after a manager has already communicated, try to follow up with the employee, provide any more required notifications or helpful information for that employee.

Dana Deason:

One thing we like to do is gather all the phone numbers and email addresses of our different teams that may be able to help answer questions, benefits, payroll, human resources. In their environment right now, we would definitely consider providing the email address to the unemployment office, as much helpful information as you can even if you do have additional pamphlets or things like that. Having the contact information in one place and ensuring those people will be available to help employees who have questions, it really sets a tone of respect and that's what you want for those employees, regardless of the reason that they're leaving the organization.

Dana Deason:

And I know I already mentioned legal counsel but I can't stress this enough. Ensure you're working closely with counsel. Obviously you don't want to take anything that I'm saying in this conversation as, "what you should do for your organization." But what legal counsel has advised us is separation decisions, they should occur based on tenure beginning with the least amount of time with the company or in the role, unless there's a compelling and highly documented reason to handle that differently. I don't know if that coincides with what advice you've been given Candee.

Candee Chambers:

Yes. And you know what, I like your comment about working with legal counsel because you also have to look very closely at age because if you are doing a RIF for people over 40, you have to really be careful that there's no ... and I know, I think you're going to talk a little bit about some of the adverse impact that could happen and you really have to be careful and make sure that you're terminating the right people for the right reasons.

Dana Deason:

So within that, you want to review the employees who were selected to ensure that it was reasonable logic that you can defend, and that the logic was used consistently, not to cherry pick. And then also consider conducting analysis to see if there was any kind of adverse impact, a disparate impact against protected groups and of course, you want to do that under attorney client privilege. And then only conduct that analysis I think if you plan to do something about it or dig deeper to determine if that was the only course of action or if there's an alternate option. And then if you use a selection criteria other than tenure, that's where I would definitely consider doing an analysis of who was selected.

Candee Chambers:

Definitely. And to your point, you have to make sure that it's not ... There isn't a disparate impact to African Americans or Hispanics or Asians or women, or people over 40, people with disabilities. You really have to make sure that there's not an abnormal reliance on people in a protected class. And especially if you use something other than tenure, to your point Dana and I was happy that you brought this up. A well documented performance situation or a performance improvement plan, it has to be defendable, which you said. So I don't think people necessarily think about that in the midst of everything that's going on but you've got to have your ducks in a row and it's never easy, it's never anything anyone in HR likes to do.

Candee Chambers:

I remember when we were doing massive severances and these were literally reductions in force severing people. And it was really unfortunate. I actually managed co-op engineering programs at the time and anytime they would in HR person on a different floor of the building, they would look and literally people would say, "Oh no, somebody from HR," or, "Here comes Candee," or you know. I got to leave my desk. And I would tell these people, "I'm here to talk about co-ops. I'm not here to terminate you for goodness’ sake." But there's a fear and they know people in HR and they see you coming and they all know. So it's a difficult time for everyone.

Dana Deason:

Absolutely.

Candee Chambers:

So what about severance?

Dana Deason:

Yeah.

Candee Chambers:

Let's go ahead with that.

Dana Deason:

That's exactly where I was headed. So one of the things that if you do have advanced notice and you get to really think through your plan, is to have a very specific, very different benefit plan that organizes what you will pay and the situations in which you will pay it. And so if you do have to consider a reduction in force for example, that is a scenario that would qualify for severance under our plan. And so we determined the benefit based on the amount of time with the company. And we worked with in-house and outside counsel to prepare agreements that offer certain protections in exchange for the severance benefits.

Dana Deason:

And so if a reduction in force is something that you do have to consider, in most plans, I think would typically qualify for severance pay. It's at no fault of their own due to a restructure or due to business level. And so then we determined the benefit amount and try to notify employees on the effective date of the reduction in force. If someone was needed to stay in the role to either close out a project department, transition relationships with customers, something like that, we would consider an additional day or retention bonus within the severance plan.

Dana Deason:

So that would be provided through the severance agreement or separation agreement. It defines the amount of time expected for the employee to continue in that role and contains the standard benefit language, monetary amounts for both severance but then also a stay bonus. And so in that scenario, the employee would need to agree to stay on until a certain date and then give their best effort in their role to qualify for that stay bonus. And then that separation date could be extended or shortened upon an agreeable timeline for the employee and the organization.

Candee Chambers:

Yeah. A lot of people are normally willing. What I'm thinking about are sometimes, people who are close to retirement age and they get a nice severance that would take them up to retirement age or past retirement age, sometimes those people are more than happy and sometimes you'll even have people volunteer and say, "Hey. Go ahead and take me off the roles. I'll take the severance." And those types of people especially, if you need them to stay because of their wealth of company knowledge, they're more than happy to stay on a little extra time to do that transition work, too. So it doesn't always have to be a negative situation. Just some people do appreciate what the company is going through and they're just as happy to get some extra money on their way out the door anyway if they're getting close to retirement age. But again, they're over 40, so you've got to make sure that they really want to go so.

Dana Deason:

Absolutely. And that's where communication becomes so important because if you don't communicate this, if you're not communicating what the company is going through and of course, you want to carefully word that with your customer experience or marketing team, whoever that is, then employees don't know about it to volunteer. So I think that needs to be part of your larger considerations and how this gets communicated. Are you able to pivot if someone, who is close to retirement age who wasn't selected for whatever reason initially either because they have prior tenure, but you're able to pivot and offer that to them if they do volunteer. So I think that's a great point Candee.

Candee Chambers:

It's happened a lot. We actually did a voluntary severance and we lost 71,000 hours of experience in one day. Yeah. And then they turned around and did an involuntary severance. So yeah. That was probably my biggest ... I mean, I wasn't severed, but just my biggest experience in watching and handling that type of severance and watching friends be severed and that parts a challenge for people who are affected and people who aren't. And I think that's one thing we don't talk about, especially in a severance situation is the requirement of the remaining employees then, to take on the work that is lost.

Candee Chambers:

And there's just kind of like right now, they're talking about the mental health of all employees during this pandemic. There's a mental health issue in a severance as well because people are concerned. And to your point, communication is so important but they're worried and then all of a sudden their coworker is severed or laid off, whatever, and then the work doesn't go away. So somebody's got to do that work. So there's another issue that people don't really talk about very much but that's something that the department definitely has to face and the manager.

Dana Deason:

Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up. That should really be the question that you ask when you are reviewing this: who is taking their work, is that work going away because we're no longer doing business with that customer, is the work going away because we're just completely ending that department, or where did that work shift, and then also make that part of your analysis in your selection process. And that's another reason that it is so important for human resources to understand the business so that they can anticipate where that work is going and gauge whether or not the remaining employees can absorb that workload, what it's going to take to accomplish that without those individuals but also as part of your communication, your larger communication strategy around a reduction in force or even temporary separations.

Dana Deason:

It's having discussions with the remaining employees because they're going to be worried not only about how am I going to get this accomplished, how am I going to get my work done and other work, is this the last round, when is the other shoe going to drop kind of situation. So definitely communicating with those remaining employees. Even of course, we can't ever guarantee that we know that this won't be the last phase or whatever it is that you're going through, but just that you are looking at that, you are aware of what you're asking of them and just have that communication, have that dialogue either in a town hall or one-on-one depending on what best suits those employees.

Candee Chambers:

And you're exactly right. And I'll tell you, never really realized until I took over this role but there's a fine line between sharing the information and being transparent and then keeping the other information that you know you will really can't share. And don't worry, there isn't anything I'm keeping. One of our creative people is actually producing this podcast so she doesn't have anything to worry about. There's nothing I'm hiding right now.

Candee Chambers:

But there are times when you have to be very careful what can be released for whatever reason, maybe there's some confidentiality or whatever, and then the transparency that you feel personally that you need to exhibit. And it is a challenge for the leadership of a department of an organization. It's not an easy time for anybody. And there's always sadness too because you don't want to see this happening to your employees. And then a lot of times, employees have become friends of yours and it's hard to see that happen. So it's a challenge for employees and for leadership.

Dana Deason:

Very much so. And another consideration kind of on that line is benefits. Even if it's temporary and it came out of a need for businesses to want to try to continue benefits, or for employees to be able to pay their current premiums as active employees while on layoff. And so it's kind of how furlough came about because a lot of employer's benefit plans do not allow for the continuation of benefits while on a layoff. So then they came up with this cute new word, furlough, in order to be able to do that.

Dana Deason:

So if it is going to be a more permanent situation, you do want to think, when do your benefits end for employees. And in the other documentation like that as well, you also want to think about if they have any NDAs, confidentiality, non-solicitation, noncompete agreements, are you going to hold them to that? Does it make sense to do so, especially if you're no longer going to be operating within that department or that realm, is it really going to hurt your organization if they are calling on those customers, things like that.

Dana Deason:

Are there aspects that you can release them from or shorten the time frame in order to help them find employment? And then ensure that you understand how the company is going to work through these if you do get requests from employees, if you do decide not to release them. And then whether agreements will be enforced, how you're going to enforce those, if you're going to provide copies to affected employees in states that don't require you to release personnel files. Just be prepared for things like that. Of course some states will require you to provide those.

Candee Chambers:

Well, and some states don't allow non-compete agreements either so.

Dana Deason:

Exactly. It shouldn't happen in the first place I guess.

Candee Chambers:

Exactly. So to Dana's point earlier, make sure you have legal counsel on calls. I mean, I've got a lot of experience but I know what I don't know. And I mean, I would never assume that I had it all right. Yeah. You must include your legal counsel. Whether it's inside your in-house counsel or outside counsel, you must have assistance from your legal counsel and besides, the severance agreements are all legal jargon and I'm not "legalize" ... I don't write in "legalize".

Dana Deason:

Yes. You don't want to be Googling a severance agreement and trying to make sense of it yourself for sure. But so now-

Candee Chambers:

So what about-

Dana Deason:

Oh, go ahead.

Candee Chambers:

Oh yeah. Go ahead. I was just going to say, what about other openings in the company? What about that?

Dana Deason:

Yes. So I like to think of the role as being an agent for those employees and recommend checking to see if there are openings in other parts of the organization where employees could potentially transfer or assist temporarily. If you have a situation like the current environment where there are some teams who maybe working in areas where the business has completely dropped off, but then there's customer service or other areas that are slammed. Can they assist? What's the ramp up period? What's the training?

Dana Deason:

Can they help out those teams that are very busy right now until the business comes back in their area? Or is there an area where they've worked in previously, they have the relevant training to be able to move over permanently if you don't perceive that the business is going to come back quickly. This creates an additional path. Of course, it will have its own paperwork, its own process, but it really benefits the organization. You have someone already familiar with your systems and they can kind of jump in. It's a great option for the employee as well when there is an opening.

Candee Chambers:

So do you have any recommendations with everyone being remote right now? I know they're starting to gradually bring people back in but there's something a little impersonal about, kind of like joking, you break up with your boyfriend over a text. It's one of those things that personally, I think it's important to do a face-to-face discussion because I mean, these employees have devoted their time and energy to the business. And I think it shows that you want them to leave with dignity and you want to treat them professionally. So my recommendation is that you would bring them into the office. What do you think? What would your recommendation be?

Dana Deason:

Absolutely. If it is safe to do so, if there is not a pandemic where you could do a lot more harm to their health and safety, then good by bringing them in. Outside of that, you should absolutely have this discussion face-to-face, even if it means that you have to travel to them. If they don't live close to the office or whatever the situation is, I think we owe it to employees to have this discussion face-to-face. However, if they are not in the office either, in this particular scenario to being high risk, to being afraid to come back into the office, you don't want to force them to do that. You want to create a safe environment that respects their wishes from a health standpoint. You also don't want to be responsible if they were to become sick, to have that question hanging in the air, is it because I made them come into the office when their employment was terminated. So you have to weigh those risks.

Dana Deason:

It's kind of crazy. This is not a factor that we would have talked about six months ago in a RIF structure, but here we are. So, really take time to think through what this process should look like for the employee. If you are not the person that's having the decision or having the discussion, then help that manager. Even if they are a seasoned manager who has communicated separations before, especially if this is going to have to occur remotely, provide them with a toolkit that has talking points that help them even plan to have the discussion. How do they approach that employee? Because if that employee's office is a kitchen table right now and the kids are running around, that's not a time to tell them that they're separating employment. So even how you start that conversation.

Dana Deason:

But if it is possible, either give them a little bit of notice and say, "Hey, we do need to have a discussion that is sensitive in nature, that it does need to be somewhat private if at all possible," and try to have a video conference if you can. I know it's no substitute for face-to face-meetings but even that little bit of humanity, whatever you can do to inject humanity, I think you should definitely strive to do. And that does require you to think through the process and make sure both the person having the discussion, received the appropriate information with enough time to review it and feel comfortable with the discussion. Maybe they do some kind of role play to prepare for it. Whatever they need to feel comfortable. But then also you're thinking about it from the employee's perspective and what did they need to try to have the most respect within this conversation?

Candee Chambers:

Yeah. Like I said, I like to treat people with dignity and have them leave with their head held high. That's why it's important. Even if it's a performance issue, I think it's important to have people be treated with dignity. But one thing with the remote situation, it has its own challenges with your computer or any personal property. And if we were back in the office today, someone would pack up their office and leave.

Candee Chambers:

But now today if people are working remote, they have pictures and they have coffee mugs and all sorts of things at their office, but yet they have a laptop with them and an ID card and things like that. Now you've also got to coordinate that. So I think one thing that we've always kind of left in my prior HR experience, because I was always the select HR people to follow up and take care of all of those things. And to your point Dana, you had said, "Make sure they have a list of all the contact information for anything they might need." Is that how you would recommend handling it?

Dana Deason:

I think so. I think in this situation, you have to think about where people are, if they were reporting to the office and they do have personal belongings in that office and they're close enough that an exchange could occur, then I think that is a good opportunity for human resources to step in and make that go smoothly. If it's a situation where they are always remote, they don't have an office that they go to so they don't have personal belongings, you could send them a FedEx box or some kind of box where they can pack up their belongings or do you have some kind of local meeting point where they can exchange the belongings safely with social distancing. So I think you need to do whatever makes sense, but HR should definitely be a liaison within that.

Candee Chambers:

I think, now sometimes the HR person is the objective outsider. And it's easier sometimes for the employee to have to deal with that difficult situation of turning over what they see as their property, even though it's company property, but you've got to cut off computer access. Those are all sorts of things and I know you commented about having a timeline and you need to make sure that everything gets done on schedule because if Joe is having the meeting with the employee who's leaving, well when does their computer access go away? Is that being done while Joe's having that conversation or ...? I mean there's a strong need for a timeline to make sure that everything is operating as it should. Do you agree?

Dana Deason:

Absolutely. Yeah. You definitely want to make sure you understand about when the conversations will occur and that you do have security shut off. If they do need access to the laptop after that security is shut off because they have photos and other personal items...

Candee Chambers:

Exactly.

Dana Deason:

How are you going to retrieve those? You really need to think through that process and make sure that it is specific to the needs of the role and the employee. So it's hard to give kind of a cookie cutter answer for that, but you need to weigh protecting the company and proprietary information with making sure the employee can have access to what they need.

Candee Chambers:

Exactly. Well, this has been some ... You provided a lot of good reminders and some great advice Dana. People don't always realize how this all impacts the individuals when you're communicating bad news. So really appreciate all of your information.

Dana Deason:

Well, it's never a good topic but it's really worth it to invest the time to think through the details so that you are prepared to provide employees the respect they deserve when they are facing this kind of devastating news. So thank you so much for having me.

Candee Chambers:

Well, you know what Dana, this has been, aside from the topic, it's been great! It's been great to have you on our quarantine podcast series. I really do love talking with you. I didn't get to see you at DEAM this year. So this is obviously in place of DEAM. We would be traveling today and we would be able to see you tomorrow since you're on our board of directors. So I am glad we're at least getting to do this. So I want to thank you for joining me. And I think you realize, I wholeheartedly agree with you whether this is a reality of the current moment for your organization, or if you're just putting the steps in place for the future.

Candee Chambers:

I think preparedness goes a long way as we've heard Dana say as well. With so many employers handling situations like this at the moment, I truly hope your information is put to use because it applies to all employers and industries. Thank you again for tuning in to the QuaranDEAM Edition of the DE Talk Podcast. With so many great topics to cover, be sure to follow DirectEmployers on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. And subscribe to the DE Talk podcast to receive notifications of new episodes. And feel free to connect with Dana, Dana Deason, D-E-A-S-O-N. Or me on LinkedIn as well, and thanks for listening!