With October being National Disability Employment Awareness Month (NDEAM), we really wanted to hit home with invisible disabilities in the workplace. Host Candee Chambers sat down with Haley Moss to start a conversation about workplace obstacles, triumphs, and the neurodiverse community.
With October being National Disability Employment Awareness Month (NDEAM), we really wanted to hit home with invisible disabilities in the workplace. Host Candee Chambers sat down with Haley Moss to start a conversation about workplace obstacles, triumphs, and the neurodiverse community.
Candee Chambers: Hello, my name is Candee Chambers I would like to welcome all of you to episode one of the DE Talk podcast. This podcast will be broadcast on a monthly basis, and we will be talking to some of our DE members, partners, and other industry experts such as Haley Moss who we have with us today.
Candee Chambers: With October being National Disability Employment Awareness month, we really wanted to hit home with invisible disabilities, which I have as well, and start a conversation about workplace obstacles, triumphs, the autism community, and how you found yourself Haley to now be an advocate for neurodiversity and therefore giving those around you a voice.
Candee Chambers: Haley I first want to thank you for joining us today. I got the pleasure of meeting Haley at our annual meeting and conference in Naples, Florida in May this year. I just have to say you had such a presence on stage. We had Haley in a general session with the Director of the OFCCP Craig Leen, that she knew from Coral Gables where he used to live, and then we gave her a concurrent session where it was standing room only. I think you really developed a strong following Haley at our annual meeting. For many people who have yet to meet you can you give us a little backstory to catch everyone up?
Haley Moss: Absolutely, and thank you again Candee and everyone at DE for having me today, and for also giving me the opportunity to speak at the annual meeting back in May. I had a wonderful time and I'm so grateful for all the different people that I've met and getting to talk about autism, neurodiversity, and all of that stuff with everybody and Director Leen as well.
Haley Moss: A little bit about me. I am out of Coral Gables, Florida which is a suburb of Miami. I am a practicing attorney at Zumpano Patricios down here. I work in anti-terrorism and international law matters mostly. The easy way to describe what I do in my day job is I go after bad guys such as drug cartels and terrorists and help work on collecting their money for victims of terrorism, which is pretty cool. It sounds really awesome to say at a cocktail party type thing. What really gets me excited everyday is autism advocacy. I was diagnosed with autism when I was three year olds.
Haley Moss: I first spoke about autism on a stage similar to the annual meeting when I was 13. I was on a panel where I was the only girl and I was fresh out of middle school and was sharing my life experiences and that's actually when I got into contact with a book publisher and low and behold, a couple years later I wrote my first book. Then I wrote another book and went to college at the University of Florida. Then I went to law school after that and now as you know, I've passed the bar exam, I'm practicing law, and that story went viral which was really cool after getting sworn into the bar. At this point in my life I like to do anything I could to help raise awareness, acceptance, and to amplify the voices of other autistic people and those around me because it is such a vast community and needs all the help we can get in many different aspects of our lives, especially as we're talking today we're focusing on [inaudible 00:03:21].
Candee Chambers: Thank you Haley. You hit on several topics that I wanted to actually talk a little bit more about. Let's go back first and talk about your parents, and I know you're very close to your folks as I always was too. I know that they related your diagnosis and how it made you special to Harry Potter's scar. How do you connect with this and view that as a positive component of who you were at that time, and how did that help you moving forward?
Haley Moss: You are right that I'm definitely really close with my family and my parents especially. I go home every couple weekends, I'm actually going home this weekend. My parents are very excited to see me.
Candee Chambers: Oh good.
Haley Moss: When they first told me about autism I was nine years old. Nine year old me was obsessed with Harry Potter. I also connected to Harry Potter because he shares the same July 31st birthday as did J.K. Rowling, so it was this instant connection, it was almost like meant to be in a way. Nine year old me was obsessed with Harry Potter, as I mentioned, and so my mom sits me down one day during summer break and she starts explaining to me how I'm different and have magical powers like Harry Potter. Nine year old me of course totally buys into this. Nine year old me is listening and she goes, "Like Harry, you're different from the muggles, but different isn't good or bad, it's just different and different can be extraordinary."
Haley Moss: Instead of focusing on the negatives and the things that may be difficult with autism, we actually talked about the strengths. My parents believe, and I believe this too, is most people are aware of the things that are hard for them. Most people know what their weaknesses are, but not everyone is told what they're good at all the time or what their strengths are. Even when we think about being at work, we're told more often than not what we're doing wrong or what we need to improve on rather than you're a superstar. Even when we look at it from that lens being told that you're a superstar type compliment of you have a great memory, you're really compassionate, you're really creative, all of these things when you hear this when you're nine, it really helps build your self-esteem.
Haley Moss: I was also a really confident kid because I always believed that I was the cool one and everybody else was kind of strange. While most autistic people I know have this understanding or belief that they are very different and everybody else is excluding them or anything, I always thought it was the other way around. I think having the Harry Potter connection also helped me have that high self-worth and self-esteem that continued out throughout my life. I also just saw autism as one of my many strengths. The reason why a lot of the things that I was good at, it was kind of a great explanation for me to understand why I was good at certain things.
Candee Chambers: Honestly I think your parents did some amazing things but I think they had a lot to work with to start with anyway. It's interesting, the term neurodiversity is a relatively new term. I know when I was working with the autism community, for instance when I was in Ohio still before I came to Direct Employers, the term neurodiversity wasn't really even used. It is relatively new and I don't think that there's a lot of HR professionals that really truly understand it. Can you give us a better definition of what neurodiversity really means and who all that would encompass?
Haley Moss: I think there's a lot of misconceptions around what neurodiversity actually entails. Technically speaking, all of us are neurodiverse from each other. We still use neurodiversity and neurodivergence generally to describe people who have brains that are different from the norm. Neurodiversity as a concept is that all of our brains are different, in that it's a natural human variation that should be accepted and respected just like we all have different ethnicities and genders and sexual orientations and other disability statuses, all these other things that make us who we are, we all have different brain profiles. That's when this idea of neurodivergence comes in, so people whose brain profiles differ. That includes autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, certain psychiatric disabilities, brain injuries, etc. It's anything that would make your brain function outside of the norm.
Haley Moss: A lot of these neurological differences are to be respected and all of that. What I think gets messed up with neurodiversity, and I notice this a lot in the circles that I travel in, it's people assume that it just means autism, and that's just it. But I never felt that way and I don't think it does. I think about my friends who have ADHD or Tourette's syndrome, or intellectual disabilities who often are neurodivergent and that get left out of this neurodiversity conversation when it very much needs to include them too.
Candee Chambers: Wow, we're sitting here looking at each other going wow, we all just really learned something. I had never heard it described that way. Unfortunately Haley, I always connected it with autism and you really have taught me a lot and I'm sure a lot of the listeners as well. That was really important I believe.
Haley Moss: A lot of people do connect it with just autism because a lot of the hiring initiatives out there seem to revolve specifically around autism and neurodiversity because what we see in a lot of autistic people are traits that are desirable for a company such as the pattern seeking, the attention to detail, things like that. Then I worry with that as well, as great as it is because autism has such a high unemployment rate generally, I worry about how are we supporting people who have more support needs, who might also have intellectual disabilities? I think that's great that you want the technology geniuses, but what about somebody who might not be able to be independent that still deserves to be able to have a job or might be say working behind the deli counter at the grocery store. Are we making sure that these hiring initiatives are including them too? I think that's something that gets thrown under the bus a lot with autism and disability and neurodiversity generally is there's still a place for you if you have an intellectual disability, if you have ADHD, dyslexia, something else as well.
Candee Chambers: You know you're exactly right and honestly I think a lot of parents are told, especially with kids with various disabilities but a lot I've heard it happens with parents who have children with autism or are on the autism spectrum, that their children will be lucky to have friends or hold a minimum wage job. They won't be able to ever leave home, etc., etc., and when I was actually working as a government contractor, I would try to include people that work with people with disabilities and have them come to our office and come to our distribution centers and say, "What types of jobs could some of your candidates with autism hold?"
Candee Chambers: I mean there are some that are more seriously impacted, some that are higher on the spectrum, there's a big diversity of people on the autism spectrum and as you do, I mean you're a perfect proof that you're probably higher on the autism spectrum and look at you, you're an attorney but there are others that are more severely impacted that maybe don't have that ability to be an attorney but they can certainly have a job. I think that's where the employment community has to actually learn that there's a place for everyone and I think that's the important thing.
Haley Moss: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Candee Chambers: It's interesting, you've turned your autism diagnosis into a strength. How did you do that? Or did mom and dad help move that forward or was that just Haley Moss?
Haley Moss: Oh mom and dad definitely helped move that forward. I don't take credit for everything because it's just not true that I did all the things. I do realize a lot comes from within and the effort that I put in, but I always think everything is a team effort. It always takes a village to raise a child but for me I think with disability it takes an even bigger village and maybe more support. Something that you mentioned that I thought was interesting, that I wanted to maybe clarify a little bit more too is when you talk about being higher on the spectrum or different needs. Not everyone can be an attorney, for instance, but I don't disagree with you but I think there's something that gets thrown under the bus a lot or at least doesn't get talked about is that I still do have lots of struggles and things that you might not see perhaps in the office.
Haley Moss: I was talking about this at a conference the other week is yeah, I can pass the bar exam, I can write a motion, I can write a contract, I can go through data and sort through things and do all these things at work, but I have no idea how to use a hair straightener.
Candee Chambers: I don't either Haley.
Haley Moss: My apartment looks like a human tornado came through it. My apartment looks like a human tornado came through it. I can't figure out the spacial relationships of parking my car, I can't do all of these different things, and if I tell you that there have been towels in my dryer for three days on top of I can't park and all this other stuff you might think well that person is "low functioning". It's really all about what you say.
Candee Chambers: Yeah, no I think you're just-
Haley Moss: If I just tell you all that stuff and not I have a job, I have my family, I have my boyfriend, I have all that stuff. I tell you all that stuff and then I tell you... You're like, "Okay, that person is high functioning." I tell you, "I can't park, I can't do this, I can't do that." You'll go, "That person seems to check off a lot of low functioning boxes," which is why I don't say I'm high or low functioning at this point because it seems to be a day in and day out thing, even just not being able to remember... At one point I could barely remember to take medication for instance if I don't feel good, things like that. It's really just functioning I think as such a spectrum as well. It's how do we support people with different needs and what your needs are? For me my needs at work are definitely less than somebody else for instance.
Candee Chambers: I didn't mean to laugh, but when you said leaving towels in your dryer I've done that and at least you didn't leave them in your washer for three days.
Haley Moss: Oh I've done that too.
Candee Chambers: Well we probably all have.
Haley Moss: Which reminds me now that I'm home I've got to see if I have a load of laundry that's still in the washer from yesterday or the night before. I think the towels are done because I know I put the towels out last night. That's a plus.
Candee Chambers: You know Haley, honest to God, that's exactly why people love you so much because you're just so real. Honestly I mean I'm laughing because I literally was getting ready this morning thinking, "Oh crap, I got to get those towels out of the dryer," so you know what, you're not alone. That is a really going point. I think maybe not being able to park your car or leaving towels in your dryer or whatever, that's not going to necessarily impact your ability to do your job. I think-
Haley Moss: Exactly.
Candee Chambers: I appreciate the description that I needed actually about the autism spectrum. To that point, you said in your presentation at our conference, when you said that if you've met one person on the spectrum you've just met one person. I think kind of helped elaborate on that a little bit, but can you maybe go into a little bit more about my inappropriate, I guess, use of low functioning versus higher functioning?
Haley Moss: It's not inappropriate. I mean some people just identify with those things far more than others and I think usually in the para and medical community they do. I just don't because I realize oh there are times I could be this lower functioning person based on what symptoms and what traits you're looking to describe at any given time that you could really separate out things and have a very different picture.
Haley Moss: That being said, every person on the spectrum is different so as you know the spectrum can affect or impact anybody, so it doesn't matter your race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, where in the world you're from, your socioeconomic status. Everybody on the spectrum is innately diverse in that way. Even getting to talk about women on the spectrum because we are diagnosed far less often is different. Every person presents differently. I know plenty of tech geniuses. I know artists. I'm pretty sure, if I come to think of it, I could probably name somebody who's a hair stylist, who unlike me, knows how to use a straightener.
Haley Moss: Then I meet people on the spectrum who can do all these really complex things and then they can't clean their house either, or then I meet other people on the spectrum who are just immaculate neat freaks. You can see it really is individual based on everybody, and then as you know, you meet people who might be non-speaking or non-verbal or using iPad apps to communicate. That you really do see so many different things and you see different IQs, you see different ways of communication, you see different ways to express themselves, even just how our bodies move because a lot of people on the spectrum stim to get that sensory stimulation and what overloads them. Different things and different challenges for different people. The things that might bother me are not the things that might bother somebody else, and the things that I struggle with might be easy for somebody else. That same natural variation is just like you can't say all women are the same because we all have the same anatomy.
Candee Chambers: That's a really good point and I like your discussion about the diverse community because it doesn't matter if you're a different race, different gender, different socioeconomic status or anything. It is interesting and I don't think people in general think about neurodiversity as just being another type of diversity. I think they like to use the term autism or the name of a disease, diabetes. I really like your tie of neurodiversity into the other protected classes and those diverse groups as well because that does make a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense to me and I'm sure it will make a lot of sense to other HR professionals as well.
Haley Moss: Absolutely, and I don't see neurodiversity and disability as two very separate things. I still think that disability is diversity and I do think even having a neurological or developmental disability means that your brain works [inaudible 00:17:20] should be accepted as a neurodiversity. I fall into both camps as neurodiversity for me is both something to be accepted and it's also still a disability. It really is an interesting line to tow because there are people like it's not just at work. I think autism is very much disability, especially if you do have more needs as well. It is still a disability but it's still also a thing that deserves to be accepted and a strength that we talk about as well, deserves to be accepted and included within a workplace.
Candee Chambers: Well and I think Haley, and I think we've talked about this before but invisible disabilities especially, people don't always know that you have and it's a choice as to whether or not you want to let people know that you have that. With my disability, diabetes, they just drill it into you at the very beginning of being diagnosed that you have to let people know just in case you have a problem because timing is everything as far as getting assistance. I'm not as opposed to letting people know I have a disability, but it is interesting whether or not you have that comfort factor behind you and if you feel like you're going to be judged differently if you let people know you have a disability. That to me is probably the most frustrating part of seeing what people with disabilities go through.
Haley Moss: Exactly. I meet other attorneys with different disabilities too, and I know if you have a physical disability I feel like you don't have that luxury so to speak, or privilege of will I disclose or not. I mean for me I feel like are just an automatic yes just in case something happens, and also because I have no shame in who I am and I also just want wherever I am to accept me for who I am.
Candee Chambers: Exactly, yep.
Haley Moss: I've met an attorney not too long ago who I believe had Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. Her thing is she'd commute to court and stuff in sneakers because of her joints, and the minute she'd get to work or anything she'd put on obviously different shoes. I didn't say a thing because I hate wearing heels all day. I can be found often in flip flops or sandals, but luckily where I am is cool with that sometimes. This attorney was telling me about the sneakers and then she's like... I'm like do they know? She's like, "I don't feel like I'm ready to tell them yet." I was like, "Okay." I realize that it's very different for everybody and your journey to disability acceptance, depending on who your employer is makes things different as well. It's all about doing your individual thing. Just because you don't want to tell someone doesn't make your disability any less valid.
Candee Chambers: You're exactly right and I like what you said about just employers... Depending on what employer you work for and what their willingness to accept whatever difference you bring to the workplace. I actually am wearing a dress for the first time today after six weeks in a wheelchair myself and so I'm feeling pretty good but I put flats on thinking it's going to be a long time before I wear heels. Because I had my broken leg and the whole nine yards and I'll tell you what, fortunately Direct Employers, I mean we have a pretty relaxed dress code around here and I don't have to worry about it but I'm going to be going out to do some public speaking and I'm going to be wearing flats. It's one of those things that I hope people accept that.
Haley Moss: Absolutely.
Candee Chambers: But you have to-
Haley Moss: I accommodate myself with shoes often enough. What I usually do is I commute in stuff in flip flops or whatever because it's more comfortable or sandals in the morning. It's always hot in Florida so it's a non-issue. Whenever I have to talk to somebody, whether it's another lawyer or one of my supervisors, the partners, or anything like that I'll change my shoes to go walk down the hall.
Candee Chambers: That's a good idea.
Haley Moss: Then I can have comfortable shoes all day, then when I realize I have to interact with other people, especially somebody who might be more senior than me, I will put on flats or I'll put on the heels just for that couple minute interaction and then when I'm back at my desk all bets are off.
Candee Chambers: Well I think maybe I'll clean out my closet and bring several pairs of shoes to my office and my closet would look a lot nicer.
Haley Moss: Oh I have a pair of heels that sits in my office no matter what, along with an extra dress, another blazer and things like that just in case. Oh if I get told, "Hey we would love for you to accompany us to this deposition hearing," I have something that's court appropriate at all times.
Candee Chambers: Well that's good being an attorney.
Haley Moss: I feel like you just never know what's going to happen so I always try to keep something court appropriate inside my office and I also just seem to collect clothes at work, which I don't really enjoy because one, my closets are both overflowing and two, I often like to exercise after work so I'll change at the office because I think office bathrooms in my office, when the doors are closed, are a lot nicer to change in than a gym bathroom. Then I end up with work clothes in my office because I don't remember to bring them home after I change into my gym clothes before I leave. I end up having a collection of clothes at work.
Candee Chambers: Well Haley, you know what? I think we're all learning that you're not much different than any of the rest of us. I have to-
Haley Moss: Except some of those clothes have probably been sitting there for a couple of months.
Candee Chambers: You know what? Well if they're dirty that's one thing, but if they're clean...
Haley Moss: I have a big bag to bring home from work. I have one of those reusable tote bag things that's kind of large that they sell for a dollar at Marshall's because I use those to bring stuff home because I don't have a car and it makes my life easier. I'm pretty sure there's all sorts of fun trinkets and things in there. I actually have stuff from DEAM19 because I always brought my souvenirs to show everyone at work. I have all that stuff in there. I think I have two pairs of shoes in there. I need to bring this home and go through it and I just never got around to it.
Candee Chambers: Well Haley, I'll tell you what. You're not any different than me, so I completely understand what you're talking about.
Haley Moss: I see it hiding under my desk everyday and I say, "Today's the day I'm going to bring it home."
Candee Chambers: You walk out and you forget it. I get that.
Haley Moss: It's been a couple months now so. I tried, let's go with that, I tried.
Candee Chambers: That works, that works.
Haley Moss: It sits in my brain for a minute and then, because executive functioning makes my short-term memory not the best, I'll be like, "Yep, I'm going to bring that home today." That goes out the window 30 seconds later and then I don't think about it until another three days later. Then I go, "Today's the day I'm going to bring it home." Here we are couple months later and it did not come home.
Candee Chambers: Oh well, you had more important things to do.
Haley Moss: It's okay. Yesterday I had to drop something off at UPS and I made a big point I got to drop this off at UPS, I got this 30 day return policy, as you know I love shopping. We could have a whole other episode of DE Talk talking about our love of shopping together.
Candee Chambers: That would work.
Haley Moss: I'm sure it would but I have to drop off this return. I was going to do it yesterday, was about to put it in my bag, and then I ran out of the house and I'm like, "Oh my God, it's nearly 9:00 in the morning. I got to get to work, I'm going to be late." Here I am right now sitting at my kitchen table and you know what's staring me right in the face? The UPS package. I'm thinking about all the things we're going to be talking about and excited to have this conversation, at the same time my brain goes, "Haley, you got to go to UPS today."
Candee Chambers: Well I'll tell you what, I'll remind you at the end of our session.
Haley Moss: Then I'll probably text you that I made it to UPS.
Candee Chambers: Exactly, that'll work, that'll work. Listen, I wanted to ask you, you have actually two undergraduate degrees. You've got a bachelor or science in psychology, a bachelor of arts in criminology. Both from the University of Florida. My younger daughter has a masters degree from the University of Florida, so go Gators.
Haley Moss: Go Gators.
Candee Chambers: Exactly, exactly, so both of those degrees, especially in the criminology and you're working with terrorism now in the legal field, it kind of gave you some focus on maybe going to law school. Did you always want to be an attorney or was there any other career that you thought about as you were growing up?
Haley Moss: Spoiler alert, I did not always want to be an attorney. Double spoiler alert, I did not think I would be doing anti-terrorism work. That's how the story ends. Originally, once upon a time, I thought I was going to be a doctor. I thought the coolest thing in the world would have been to be a psychiatrist. What better thing to do than get to help other people with their problems, I love brain stuff, I love learning about mental illness and disorder and even understanding disability like we have as well. I thought psychiatry was really cool as a field.
Haley Moss: I got to college, in the first six weeks I was in chemistry and I was like, "Nope." As I'm sure anyone who's ever started in pre-med, which is 90% of people, I'm sure that's a made-up statistic too but it's fine, is that we all go through this pre-med idea. We're going to be pre-med, we're going to be doctors, and then you take chemistry, physics, whatever class it is and you go, "I don't think so."
Candee Chambers: Changed my mind.
Haley Moss: Basically, and then at orientation I thought I was going to go to school for graphic design and then I realized the graphic design buildings were far enough off campus I didn't feel comfortable, so that threw that plan out the window too. I stuck with my original major of psychology though, which I was pretty proud of myself for not being that indecisive on. I stuck with psychology because I thought it was really understanding to understand people and when you naturally don't understand social cues and things like that because of your disability, what better way than to try to understand it then knowing everything about how the brain functions.
Haley Moss: Of course, at this point in my life I could tell you, understanding about neurotransmitters does not mean I understand what people are thinking and feeling.
Candee Chambers: Yeah I get that, I get that.
Haley Moss: And that facial expressions still don't tell the full story. That you can still smile and be unhappy.
Candee Chambers: Well that's definitely true. I'm one of those people that you can look at my face and know if I'm happy or upset but you're right, you-
Haley Moss: Oh me too, except... So I had some really difficult assignment at work the other day and I'm pretty sure I was giving this lawyer the death stare about it.
Candee Chambers: Good for you.
Haley Moss: I said, "I don't know if you picked up on it." I'm like, "Please I'm mentally giving you the death stare if I'm not physically giving it to you." He goes, "Is this done yet, is this done yet?" This is a two person thing to do and I'm doing it alone and I got sidetracked with something else because when certain other lawyers want something that takes priority and it's like how do I shuffle through all this?
Candee Chambers: Well I think...
Haley Moss: So it's all a learning thing.
Candee Chambers: Well how do you think that your abilities, your disability, really I personally don't like the word disability. I have a condition I live with, but how do you think your autism has helped you in your career? I know that it was funny, watching you up on stage in our general session at our annual meeting, I mean you brought the house down when you answered Craig Leen's question about self-identification. I thought we were all going to lose it, we were dying laughing and it was the best response ever.
Haley Moss: Meanwhile the more I thought about it, the more I'm like I probably shouldn't have said that.
Candee Chambers: You know what? No, I honestly Haley, for those of you who obviously don't know what we're talking about. He asked about self-identification because for government contractors they're required to request self-identification of those with a disability and your choices are yes, no, and I choose not to disclose. She said, "Why do you want to know?" Then he said, "Well you can always say I choose not to answer." She said, "Which means I have one but I don't want to tell you." I thought the house-
Haley Moss: Face it, it's true.
Candee Chambers: Well exactly and we've been saying that.
Haley Moss: I mean yes I do have a disability, I just don't want to talk about it.
Candee Chambers: Exactly, exactly.
Haley Moss: It's like if you're going to put that on the thing just put yes and no. Or if you say prefer not to disclose then just leave it at that even though that definitely mean I do and I don't want to tell you.
Candee Chambers: And the fact Haley-
Haley Moss: It's simply a yes or no question compared to those surveys that ask what your current income is and they have 50 different brackets on there. Then there's a prefer not to disclose.
Candee Chambers: It's because I make way more than that or way less than that.
Haley Moss: Or I just don't want to tell you.
Candee Chambers: Right, exactly but...
Haley Moss: In that case saying prefer not to disclose doesn't tell you anything, but in disability prefer not to disclose literally means I have a disability but I don't want to talk about it.
Candee Chambers: Well Haley I honestly do believe that your answer was spot on and I think not everyone feels comfortable in telling the Director of OFCCP something like that. I think the fact that you knew him and-
Haley Moss: I guess you could say that, it's just I don't remember to shut off the social filter. A lot of people on the spectrum do a lot of matching and trying to pass because there are a lot of social norms and rules we need to follow because of how neurocivil society has developed and sometimes I notice this, I flip or I refuse to do the mapping things. I am who I am, I can make mistakes, it's okay not to follow every rule perfectly and it's okay to be who I am. That's one of those moments where I didn't quite stick to the script of okay, I probably need to show this person a little bit more respect, I need to answer in a certain way, and have this dialog in such a manner because he's here not as my friend but as someone in a position of authority and I respect authority. When I look back at it I'm like, "Uh oh, did I not respect authority, did I not respect this older wiser person?"
Candee Chambers: You know Haley...
Haley Moss: Then I'm like I just answered the question as honestly as I humanly could.
Candee Chambers: Exactly, and you know what Haley? I think you did a lot with that response and I know Craig, I mean I don't know him as well as you do certainly, but I don't think he was offended by that at all. He laughed, he took it well, and I think it's important for people to hear you say that because he knows you, he also understands autism, and he got it. It was a learning opportunity for him and I think he took it as that. One thing that I really want to ask you about, you've been called a lot of things, an inspiration and we're going to talk about that in a second, an inspiration, a trailblazer, an advocate, a champion, a role model, all positive attributes. At our annual meeting in your concurrent session, you commented about not wanting to be called an inspiration. Can you explain why and explain how you feel about that?
Haley Moss: Okay so inspiration is one of those really interesting topics that I think people with disabilities hear that they're an inspiration all the time. I think about inspiration generally, how many times have you said about people without disabilities that they're inspiring? It's very, very little when you come to think of it. When you ask people why someone who has a disability is inspiring they usually don't have a good answer for you, it's just that's the natural thing, or they think at least I'm not that person, at least I don't have an insulin [inaudible 00:32:39], at least I don't have sensory overload, at least I don't have seizures. At least I'm not that person, and usually the inspiration story, at least in popular media that we see, falls into this category that a lot of people with disabilities call inspiration porn.
Haley Moss: They use that very deliberately because their story is designed to make non-disabled people feel good about themselves. When I talk about inspiration porn and inspirational stories like that, my quintessential example is the high school quarterback taking the kid with down syndrome to prom. The story 99% of the time focuses on what a good person the quarterback is. The story won't talk as much about the person with down syndrome, who really just wanted to go to prom. It didn't matter that the quarterback was the person who took them to prom, it was really that here is this [inaudible 00:33:26] person was trying to live their best life, do what is normal and expected for someone of that age to do of going to prom or playing a sport or whatever that thing is. It doesn't make you an inspiration for doing that.
Haley Moss: I think a lot about this. There's plenty of things about people with disabilities that I find inspiring. I remember when one of my friends taught me, "Hey, you know there's an app that you can get to get somebody to clean your house?" That inspired me. It inspires me when people get up in the morning because they're morning people, because I'm not a morning person. I think inspiration gets used very loosely with disability and not always for the right reasons.
Haley Moss: I always tell people if you're inspired by something I hope it's for the right reasons. If it's because you want to do better for your organization, the people around you, or the fact that I'm motivated or something like that, if that inspires you great. Be inspired for the right reasons. That's kind of where I come from because I think it's really weird when you're an inspiration because once upon a time you were non-verbal and now you're an attorney. I just [inaudible 00:34:25]. I don't know what it's like not to be autistic. I think disability is one of those things that when it's you, it's still your life, it's not just an inspirational story to make other people feel good about themselves. I think that's kind of the best way to describe how I feel about inspiration. I'm okay with it.
Haley Moss: If people tell me I'm an inspiration I'm still going to nod and say, "Thank you." If I really want to dig deeper on it I might ask, "Why do you feel that way?" That's when the good answers come out because people do I think mean it in such a way that you do want to be inspired and it isn't just your story. Your story, it's like but this is just my life. This isn't a story.
Candee Chambers: That's exactly right.
Haley Moss: That we can sum up a story... Exactly, and I think about my story and I'll tell my story and people will start clapping when I tell them I passed the bar and became an attorney. I say, "If I took autism out of the equation and your headline was woman passes bar exam, gets sworn in as an attorney, are you going to be clapping? Are you going to be saying I'm an inspiration?"
Candee Chambers: Well you know what?
Haley Moss: Then everybody falls kind of silent there because, as much as I hate to admit it, there's 110,000 lawyers or something in Florida.
Candee Chambers: You know what Haley? My older daughter's an attorney, she went to Miami of Ohio and then to DePaul in Chicago for law school, and I know how difficult law school is just from watching my brilliant daughter try to figure out how to get through it. She's successful today but I know what your parents went through watching you go through it too. It's a tough-
Haley Moss: It definitely is tough and I think it's inspiring when people do make it through law school too. I think that what's inspiring is the amount of obstacles that you have to overcome, especially when law school's already hard enough and getting there is hard enough, and that there's other obstacles in your path because you are a person with a disability. Getting through all of that is what's really awesome, and then at the same time I get upset about it because those obstacles shouldn't exist.
Candee Chambers: You say that obstacles shouldn't be there?
Haley Moss: Yeah, that those obstacles that people with disabilities face in academia-
Candee Chambers: Oh exactly.
Haley Moss: And all these places shouldn't exist. I shouldn't have to worry about that.
Candee Chambers: Well...
Haley Moss: I always say that the best day that will come, and as much as I love getting to have these conversations with you and everybody that I get to talk about disability and autism with, the best days are when we don't have to do this because we are so accepting that we understand that at times. I said this at DEAM as well, it was a social model of disability, is that society around us could be more disabling than the actual diagnosis or disability.
Candee Chambers: Exactly. Well, let me ask you this. What advice can you offer employers who want to recruit neurodiverse candidates? What can an employer do?
Haley Moss: I think what's important is to leave your biases at the door number one. I think a lot of employers and people have preconceived notions of what neurodiverse people and people on the autism spectrum are like and will do, and based on stereotypes, media, and all that. Even look at what's on TV, your normal autistic person or character is usually some kind of tech genius, some kind of STEM genius, usually a dude, really awkward, fits all these boxes that sounds like a DSM checklist almost. Not every person on the spectrum is going to look or sound like a DMS checklist. I still think it's funny that at times it's assumed at work that I'm a tech genius. As you know I'm a lawyer, not exactly a tech genius. You have to make the best of those stereotypes.
Haley Moss: I tell people leave their biases at the door, and also to focus on experience rather than the perceived weaknesses and disabilities. If we're thinking this person might not be super social but they're applying for a role that doesn't require a lot of social skills, it shouldn't matter. Also, so often I know in interviews as well, and I'm sure you might have this experience too, is we judge people based on things like eye contact.
Candee Chambers: Things that what?
Haley Moss: Eye contact.
Candee Chambers: Oh eye contact, oh yeah, you're exactly right.
Haley Moss: For me eye contact is very uncomfortable and unnatural as it is for many people on the spectrum. When I'm asked about eye contact I'll tell people, "Do you want me to look at you and look like I'm paying attention or do you want me to actually pay attention to what you're saying?" While based on how society is set up, it's assumed that if you're not looking at somebody you're not [inaudible 00:38:51].
Candee Chambers: That's interesting.
Haley Moss: Because a lot of studies and stuff will show that managers and things see eye contact as a sign of trustworthiness.
Candee Chambers: Well I think you've hit on a really important point, and again that's just the lack of education that everybody has about various types of disabilities and especially hiring managers, recruiters, and obviously they can't be expected to know everything about everything but eye contact. I remember you and I talking about that at Deem and I have to admit I didn't realize that some people with autism have a problem with eye contact, or the sensory perception issues. That's just something that number one, people need to be open to learning but I like your comment about leaving your biases at the door. I'm a big fan of asking a question if something is unusual or whatever or if someone has a disability and they're in a wheelchair and you think you want to help them but you always need to ask first, do they want help? Do they need help? I think the assumptions that people make are the big problems, especially in the workplace.
Haley Moss: Absolutely. I think the assumptions definitely do get the best of us. I don't fault people for making assumptions or stereotyping because it is a natural thing that we do. It's very easy and it's also how our brains are wired is to put people in things and boxes. I know it's not always the best that we do it. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, and we all have our biases and we all have our pre-conceived notions of things, and that's okay. It's just recognizing it and realizing that we too could do better.
Candee Chambers: Exactly, what is one thing that you would like people to know about the neurodiverse community?
Haley Moss: I think what I want people to know is that we are here, we're ready to work, we want to work, we can add a lot of value. I know if you look at certain studies and certain pilot programs that have hired neurodiverse workers, that it saves companies money, they've driven innovation, so having neurodiverse teams, having autistic people, neurotypical people, people with other different brain function that having a team that is completely neurodiverse does help drive innovation and drives things forward. You need all kinds of minds I think to solve the problems of today and tomorrow. You need all kinds of minds to make things happen. Look at history, a lot of the great people that have moved our society forward were probably some form of neurodivergent. It's really an interesting thing to see it from that perspective is we can be moving things forward and there are things that some people are great at and things that not everyone is great at.
Haley Moss: When I think about neurodiverse hiring and stuff that I want to see too is I don't want to see where people get pegged into boxes or certain types of roles. A lot of the companies that are really into neurodiversity are in the tech sphere, or in accounting, in finance, all these very science, technology, engineering, and math fields. Then I want to ask, "Well what about," say for instance, if I wanted to go through a neurodiverse hiring program. What if you wanted corporate counsel? What if you wanted someone in the marketing department because I do marketing at my law firm as well? That's when sometimes they have to think on their feet for a better answer. What if we want to join the HR department because I think one day having neurodiverse people in an HR department will help make sure that inclusion happens on all levels, and even when I looked at certain law firm jobs at one point and looked for summer associate positions, I realized they weren't even including disability in their definition of diversity. It's how do we get this moving forward in such a way?
Candee Chambers: Well you actually just gave me a whole lot of things to think about. I honestly have said here at Direct Employers over the last couple of years, we need to try and help our members find people with disabilities to work. I mean we need to get that group of individuals where the rate of unemployment is the highest of anybody, and interestingly enough, you hit a very important point in that people that... Or consumers I should say, that support various companies do so more when companies that treat individuals with disabilities as a positive attribute at their organization. We talk about showing your culture at your various company, letting them know that you welcome people with disabilities. Like you just said, the companies that do a lot of work with the neurodiverse community, so obviously those companies are well known.
Candee Chambers: Like I said earlier, there's a place for everyone depending on whatever type of work you do. You are not only an attorney, you're an artist, you're an author. I mean you pretty much do it all Haley. You wear me out when I think about everything you do.
Haley Moss: I wear myself out. People ask me all the time, "How do you do it? Do you ever take [inaudible 00:44:10]." I'm trying, and oddly enough I'm still behind on stuff. I feel like there are [inaudible 00:44:18] because as much as I love what I do in disability world and I love getting to have the conversations that we do, people tend to forget that I actually practice law full-time.
Candee Chambers: Oh yeah, that other job that lets you go shopping.
Haley Moss: I mean it's kind of a thing that I actually practice law.
Candee Chambers: Well, let me ask you this, you kind of talked about marketing and some of those things. What other strengths and skillsets do members of the neurodiverse community bring to the workforce?
Haley Moss: I think it really depends on the role, but I think a lot of us are very detail oriented. We really do want to make you happy. I know I'm a people pleaser so I want to do the best for everybody. I want to be fair to everybody. I want to be able to help make things the best they could be. I always have ideas, so I was the one who got our firm on LinkedIn. I had the whole strategy rolled out, I'm the one who... Obviously a lot of the folks need to get approved by the powers that be, but I still had the idea of okay we got a new attorney in the firm, I want to welcome them properly. I run the website, so I do all sorts of other little things in that regard too because I find it fun and usually they're the jobs that a lot... At least in my firm, that a lot of the attorneys don't really want because it's complicated or it just takes time where you have to interact with everybody for it. I'm also yeah, send me an email if you want something updated on your profile or if you want this updated, it'll get done ASAP because I think it's fun.
Haley Moss: I also like wearing a lot of different hats because I also realize this is how I can continue to grow and also for me, when neurodiversity and this is something that I got to talk about with another employer, is we talked about it's still having these neurodivergent candidates and new employees, they're still part of the company culture. They're not just part of some pilot program, they are full fledged employees wherever you're working. My job title is exactly the same as every other associate. Those of you who went to DEAM you know that I went to DEAM with another associate from my firm. We have the exact same job title. Our responsibilities are a little different because we work on different cases, but we have the same job title and things like that. I'm not special, so to speak, because I'm neurodiverse and that, I'm part of some other program for instance.
Candee Chambers: Well you know what Haley, I think again a lot of employers they talk about accommodations and they all think that they're too expensive or whatever, and actually accommodations are very, very inexpensive. What accommodations do you think employers can provide to create a better working environment?
Haley Moss: You're right that most accommodations don't really cost that much. I believe the average accommodation is about $500.
Candee Chambers: $500 exactly.
Haley Moss: And most of them cost nothing. For me things that make my life a little easier, that I don't usually have to ask for, which is really nice, is even sometimes being able to listen to music while I work to drown out background noise of when my coworkers are talking and I need to focus. Or I can close my door or I can go for a walk if I need to to take a break because I feel overwhelmed, or I can tell someone, "Hey, you're giving me a lot of things to digest at once," so one of the associates that I'm working with, we're working on this really extensive [inaudible 00:47:28] and she gives so much information at once. She realizes that it overwhelms anybody and for me I'm like, you're right it's really overwhelming, please break this down into a couple different discussions so then I can at least focus and get something done because if you say too much it's all just going to go mumbo jumbo in my head and then why did we just have this conversation?
Candee Chambers: Right, right.
Haley Moss: I remember the first time I was to right a motion. I was told, "Go write this motion," and I had no clue what I was doing. Then I remembered going back and I stared at the screen for about an hour because I had no clue what to do. Obviously you can't really bill your clients for just staring there for an hour.
Candee Chambers: Well you know...
Haley Moss: I remember going back and saying, "I don't know what I'm doing. I don't quite understand this. Can we break this down somehow?" Then it was taught in such a way of okay, start with the statement of fact, we'll do that first. Have that done first and then we'll do the argument and then we'll do this and then we'll do that. It was broken down in such a way that I was able to get this complete motion but it was due in little chunks so then I was able to get it done, and now when I'm told to go write a motion I know how to do it because it was broken down for me in such a way.
Candee Chambers: You know what Haley? I honestly can't believe that that's not good information for any new associate. Obviously you had the guts to ask for it, but really that's good knowledge for any new associate to have and any good teacher should teach you how to do it in a way that's understandable to any entry level employee.
Haley Moss: Absolutely, I'm a fan of [inaudible 00:49:11] so that's the whole thing with the ADA was when the sidewalks are changed it helps impact everybody. I'm a fan of that because I think if we're able to help the most marginalized people in the office somehow or make something more accessible, it ends up benefiting everybody. Even an employee manual is written in plain language because you have somebody who has an intellectual disability who might not understand all the technical mumbo jumbo and jargon. If you have it broken down in such a way that it's plain language, it benefits everybody, not just the person with an intellectual disability.
Candee Chambers: Exactly.
Haley Moss: If you can help with marginalized people in your workplace, you wind up benefiting everybody. Even if it's having... I know some workplaces that I've been in their, it has to be inclusive as could be, will be fragrance free because you might have allergies or you might have increased sensitivity or something else that perfumes or cologne or whatever might affect your sensory processing, or other allergies or other conditions. In those workplaces it's okay and then you realize, "Oh this benefits everyone because some of us just really don't like [inaudible 00:50:14] on the morning."
Candee Chambers: Well and people with allergies have problems with that as well. There's all sorts of-
Haley Moss: Exactly so it ends up benefiting everybody, so that's how I see a lot of accommodating and a lot of things on a general level. Even for me sometimes I realize, and I realize this when I speak a lot, is fluorescent lighting could just give me a headache.
Candee Chambers: Well you know what, we have a new-
Haley Moss: It's one of those things that's very hard to handle I think sensory wise and then I realize a lot of people get migraines, a lot of people might hear the hum of the lights like I do and it drives me nuts.
Candee Chambers: You know what Haley?
Haley Moss: Then I realize oh if we went to LEDs it's more energy efficient, it ends up benefiting everyone in more ways than one.
Candee Chambers: Well Haley-
Haley Moss: I think a lot of accommodation ends up benefiting everybody.
Candee Chambers: We actually have a new office here Haley and you know that there's an open invitation for you to join us, but we have a lot of those accommodations that are just built in with the lighting, the lake that people can walk around, the white noise, we have a lot of people listen to music, we have closed doors, the whole nine yards and that's something that is beneficial... We have high low desks. I mean the whole nine yards and-
Haley Moss: It's definitely a company culture thing too because in a lot of places that are more traditional you might not see that.
Candee Chambers: Exactly or in older offices and that sort of thing. Listen, we're getting close to the end of our time but I want to just ask you a couple more... Well actually kind of two questions in one. How do you see the hiring landscape in the future for neurodiverse job seekers and what is your one last piece of advice to anyone who is listening regarding the neurodiverse community?
Haley Moss: I see the job landscape for neurodiverse people changing for the better as time goes on. We are slowly closing this employment gap, so I think statistics quoting as high as about 85% of people on the spectrum as unemployed, I've seen all sorts of different statistics, but generally people with disabilities are underemployed or unemployed, which is a problem. I see this changing because as we are bringing more neurodiverse people into our companies, think about someone like me. I'm 25 years old right now.
Candee Chambers: Imagine that.
Haley Moss: In 10 years or so maybe one day I'll be partner at a firm or someone like me might be higher up on a team and they might get promoted a couple times. Then it's our responsibility or something that we might want to do is be able to give back. If I'm hypothetically a partner somewhere I might want to bring in neurodiverse attorneys that someone else who might be in a bigger corporation that's in HR that's neurodivergent might want to bring in other people like them into the teams too. Then you see neurodiverse hiring changing that it's a for neurodiverse people by neurodiverse people type situation. I think that it's going to change for the better, especially as the current generation moves up the chain. Right now it's a bunch of neurotypical people doing this for the neurodiverse community. I think in due time eventually it's going to be everybody working alongside each other or neurodiverse people doing it for other people who are neurodiverse. I think it's really going to keep changing and it's going to change for the better, so I think this gap is going to close.
Candee Chambers: I will tell you one thing Haley, I do think that you have made us all realize that the neurodiverse community isn't that much different than the rest of us, as far as-
Haley Moss: We're all people.
Candee Chambers: Well exactly and some of the things that you're afraid of, there's a lot of people who are not on the autism spectrum that have the same fears or have the same issues. You have a car accident you can have traumatic... I'm sorry post traumatic stress and there's all sorts of things that people can be affected by and I think you've helped us realize that today. I have to tell you Haley, I just want to thank you so much for joining us and I want everyone else to know that you can connect with Haley in person at our upcoming 2020 annual meeting and conference in Fort Worth, Texas. You can also follow her life on Instagram @HaleyMossart. We'll also link all of this in a short blog post as well so you can grab all of the links later.
Candee Chambers: Haley again, thank you so much for being part of our first DE Talk podcast and I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. We will actually be doing monthly podcasts to start interviewing members, partners, other industry experts, all sorts of folks, and I invite all of you to subscribe through either iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts so you will receive regular notifications of new episodes. With that Haley, I'm going to say good-bye and thank you again. You know I love talking with you and I'm sure we'll talk later today.
Haley Moss: Absolutely, thank you so much Candee.
Candee Chambers: Thanks again Haley, talk soon.